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If it is somehow immoral for me to photocopy a book, is it then also immoral to read a book, and use photographic memory to transcribe that book onto paper for my library?

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They don't apply well to copying information because the act of depriving someone of something doesn't equate with copying something. There just different things...Yes, they are different but how can you say that depriving a developer of money that he/she has earned is not the same as "depriving someone of something"? The someone is the developer and the something is their royalty check.

There's talk of harm and hurting the author, but I haven't seen anything to substantiate that there is any real direct harm done to the author.How hard have you looked? I haven't seen it either but I am reasonably sure that if there was no software piracy that prices would be a little lower. I can think of a couple of reasons:
[1] no need to compensate for stolen software
[2] no need to spend resources developing increasingly more complex security for software.

The author is only going to lose anything if the person who made a copy would otherwise have purchased one from the author.No, that's false. The fact that the person has copied the software and is using it means that the author has lost their portion of the sale. If a person has no intention of buying the software then they should have no intention of using it either.

Authors tend to consider every person who copies, and someoen who would have paid. The fact is that not only is it hard to ascertain who might and might not buy their software, but it is reasonable to assume that most who think it's okay to download software aren't going to spend money on software. On whole the benefits the author reap from their software being shared may easily outweigh any indirect loss they may suffer, and probably does.How does an author benefit from people using their software without paying for it?

Someone will invariably argue that copying software is immoral soley based on its illegality.Others will argues that copying / stealing software is immoral because it's denying the author their livelihood.

Anyway, it's obvious you guys are saying that software piracy is immoral, so I have a few questions for anyone who cares to answer. Legal consideration aside, what moral reason gives a creator of information any say in what I do with that information once it is in my possession?If you didn't pay for it then it should not be in your possession in the first place. The author has typically spent considerable time and effort into building a product, albeit it an intellectual one. They built this product with the goal of selling it on and putting food on the table, hash in their pipe, whatever. How can it be OK to deny them that? If it is OK for people to steal software i.e. not spend any money, then what motivation is there for people to buy software in the first place? Why doesn't everyone just rip them off?

The only accurate material world analogy I can think of would involve a matter replicator. How about a hard disk drive?

If I had a Star Trek type replicator, what moral reason should compel me not use it to replicate a bunch of apples I bought at the grocery store?Actually, doing something like you suggest would be a GOOD thing given the shortage of food in the world but what you describe is not the same as software piracy. It's difficult to discuss this analogy since it's a little futuristic. Who know what the world will be like when we have matter replicators?

If it is somehow immoral for me to photocopy a book, is it then also immoral to read a book, and use photographic memory to transcribe that book onto paper for my library?Depends on what you are going to use it for afterwards. If you are going to then distribute then that would be immoral because the people who are reading your handwritten version of the book don't need to buy the legitimate copy so the author, once again, loses money.

I really don't see where the grey area is here. Copying software, source code or binaries, is stealing someone else'e work without the author realizing any financial gain which is usually the purpose behind releasing the software in the first place. If you depend on your income to feed your family and there are people out there using your software, but who haven't paid for it, they're taking money from you even if they had no intention of paying in the first place.

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And Max, how can it be said a developer has lost money on every instance of piracy? Do you have any idea how many hundreds of games and applications here that I have that I tried out for an hour or less and never even gave a second look to? Does that mean that they lost money? Not all of them. Because surely if I bought everything before I tried I would have been screwed over by the software industry yet again. 99% of them though would never have been bought in the first place.

Then there is the downloadable movie issue. Downloading a movie robs the studios of revenues because in order to see it you would have had to buy the movie or go to the theatre....right? Well, what about watching a movie for the first time at a friends house. Oh gee, nobody got paid for my viewing there. Or what if I borrowed that movie? Or....what if I RENTED that movie and got that rental free? Hmmm....I know, graspong at straws....but when does "sharing a pleasure" become accessory to piracy as AW pointed out?

Max...piracy is now an excuse for higher prices!! Sales are HIGHER than ever!! Back in the 80's when the PC game market was just starting, new games were still at this price. When I was a kid, for my ColecoVision, I spent $50 on Donkey Kong Jr. That was damn near 20 years ago (in fact, I think it was!). When audio cd's came out they said "prices will plummet as the technology matures" well guess what, the technology has matured!!

The music artists now get screwed over on cds that cost pennies to make. Software developers get screwed over by greedy publishers demanding that their software gets out the door before it is finished and thus affecting future sales. The customer gets screwed over because the sales of both these products are FINAL. The only ones NOT hurting are the publishers/distributors because they see ALL the revenue first. They dictate what the "real" sales figures are. And they cut the royalty checks.

As per our previous discussions on this RB, I seriously DO hope that Valave perfects Steam...or a derivitive of. If there were an option to get the game without going through a publisher I would (I still think the price should be lower though to compensate for the money saving aspects of not producing the jewel case, inserts, instruction book...and of course the lack of "presentation"). For like I said, I do buy software when it is warranted. I bought the Half Life 2 Collectors Edition. Didn't have to spend $99 but I did (pretty lame T-Shirt IMO). I could have downloaded ot to play single player....but didn't. Can't say that in over the month that I have had it I even played online...so it isn't that. It is just that this game, having downloaded the stolen beta, seeing the tech videos...I knew I wanted it. It was worth it.

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If you depend on your income to feed your family and there are people out there using your software, but who haven't paid for it, they're taking money from you even if they had no intention of paying in the first place.

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If they don't give you money and do not use your product are they still depriving you of income? But this is where we do agree though...if you use it, buy it!

And Max, how can it be said a developer has lost money on every instance of piracy? Do you have any idea how many hundreds of games and applications here that I have that I tried out for an hour or less and never even gave a second look to? Does that mean that they lost money? I think we are generally on the same page here. I'm not talking about people who like to "try before they buy", I'm talking about people who make regular use of a product but don't feel like they should pay for it. Obviously donwloading a game / app for trial use is still illegal but if it leads to a sale then it is actually serving as a tool. That tool can be abused though.

Not all of them. Because surely if I bought everything before I tried I would have been screwed over by the software industry yet again. 99% of them though would never have been bought in the first place.I get your point and I agree with it too. I hate paying good money for shite.

Then there is the downloadable movie issue. Downloading a movie robs the studios of revenues because in order to see it you would have had to buy the movie or go to the theatre....right?Correct.

Well, what about watching a movie for the first time at a friends house.I would need to read the fine print again but I am sure the law states that you are not supposed to have public viewings BUT everyone does it anyway.

The difference is when you download a movie you actually "own" a copy of the movie now but you didn't pay for it.

Oh gee, nobody got paid for my viewing there. Or what if I borrowed that movie?Assuming that you borrowed the movie from someon who had bought it as opposed to borrowing a pirate copy then I see no problem with that as you are watching a legitimately bought copy. I understand that you, as the borrower, have paid nothing to watch the move but you are watching a legitimate product, not a pirate. In my eyes there is a very fine line but there is a difference.

Or....what if I RENTED that movie and got that rental free? Hmmm....I know, graspong at straws....but when does "sharing a pleasure" become accessory to piracy as AW pointed out? Again, I assume you are not renting a pirated DVD in which case BlockBuster, or whoever, has already paid for the disk(s).

Max...piracy is now an excuse for higher prices!! Sales are HIGHER than ever!! Back in the 80's when the PC game market was just starting, new games were still at this price.When I started playing games on my ZX Spectrum I recall them costing something like 5 UKP (about $10). That was over 20 years ago. Now when I buy a game it costs 5 times that much (excluding budget titles and re-releases - I could buy budget games for my Spectrum for 1.99 UKP or $4).

When I was a kid, for my ColecoVision, I spent $50 on Donkey Kong Jr. That was damn near 20 years ago (in fact, I think it was!).Cannot comment on that, I didn't have said system. I would only say that if you were playing games of the same quality as DK Jnr. then you would have a cause for complaint but technology has moved on leaps and bounds. My Spectrum games loaded into 48Kb of memory. Now games come on DVD and easily take advantage of the 768Mb of RAM I have.

[ 12-28-2004: Message edited by: Mad Max ]

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Like a woman I hate said abough music piracy
Speech

If I remove from someone a photograph that has sentimental value, but no monetary value, I have still committed an immoral act. - The immorality of theft does not account for the monetary value of what is stolen.

It is immoral to deprive someone of their physical property because of the resulting loss of utility, potential or actual, not some abstract monetary value. - You do not remove potential or actual utility of information from the owner when you copy it.

The immorality implicit in stealing physical property does not exist in the copying of information. - Copying information is illegal, not immoral.

Legality:

Things that are illegal are not necessarily immoral. Usually such are laws to benefit society by keeping things safe and orderly. - The question is whether current copyright laws are more beneficial or detrimental to society. Who benefits the most? In other words, are current copyright laws as they apply to copying information justified?

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I played the hell out of some Minecraft. Single player mode is a blast. I may actually put down some coin for it when it goes RTM so I can play multiplayer. I have mentioned it to several people I know, and one or more is bound to buy it too.

There is something cool about searching for, discovering, and thoroughly exploring vast underground caverns full of precious jewels, metals, lava flows, and water falls. My favorite is hewnning out mountain fortresses and building massive structures like lava towers. It's pretty fun.

Anyway, great game, good idea, and good work, rvr/notch.

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Just waiting for ATT's Atrix to come out. Then I can upgrade my HTC Aria with cracked screen.

New gadgets make everything better.

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