quote:

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France moved yesterday towards the creation of a new law which would make sexist or homophobic comments illegal...

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link

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I really do hate how the gay "community" has twisted the word phobia which traditionally meant 'fear', and equated it with simple aversion or hate. The word 'homophobe' now equates fear, aversion, and hatered. Regardless of the reasons you may have for disapproving of that lifestyle, if you voice your dissent you will be indiscriminately labeled with a word meaning you fear (a base irrational emotion) or hate gay people. No questions asked. You're a hatemonger. Through common misuse, the definition of the word has been changed. This has worked out great for homosexual activists.

People don't think anymore.

[ 12-11-2004: Message edited by: Mute ]

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Looks and sounds damn ignorant.

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Originally posted by J0SH:
But a disapproving a gays lifestyle is no different from disapproving a black persons lifestyle. you'd certainly be called a racist if you said you disapproved a black persons lifestyle.

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When we were in Dublin we ordered fries and we ate them with ever sauce they had like tomato, mustard, tartar, mayo, etc. They were surprisingly good. That said, I can't argue with hot sauce, I like hot with everything!

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Originally posted by J0SH:
But a disapproving a gays lifestyle is no different from disapproving a black persons lifestyle. you'd certainly be called a racist if you said you disapproved a black persons lifestyle.

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I am gonna go out on a limb and guess that you were trying to equate race with homosexuality. If that is what you are trying to say, I disagree. No, race is who you are. Homosexuality is what you do. The claim that homosexuality is a genetic trait has not been substantiated in science, so unlike race, being gay is a choice until evidence to indicate otherwise has been discovered. This does not mean that it is okay to harass gays. Nobody should be subjected to harassment.

What it does mean is that there is no logical or compelling basis on which to legally favor and [more importantly to some] validate a lifestyle that not only runs against society's standards of morality, but has no historical precedent of being a beneficial practice. If a 'gay gene' is found one day, than that may change, but for now, the gay rights movement is not the same as the civil rights movement of the 60s, and being gay is not the same as being black.

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That's ridiculous...

You are born gay it's not a choice. Every single gay person I know has stated that they knew they were gay even as a young child.

I like real homemade (the thin type) ranch sauce on fries and even tartar sauce so although I probably would not like straight mayo I can see it.

Louisiana Hot Sauce is ok in an emergency but its way too mild for my taste when it comes to hot sauces.

Mute have you tried Clancy's Fancy Hot Sauce?
http://www.hotshoppe.com/productPage.asp?PID=2240&CategoryID=4&CategoryName=HOT+SAUCES%2DSOUTHWESTERN

[ 12-12-2004: Message edited by: Cacophonous ]

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Really?

There were gay kids from my school that used to be straight.

Maybe they were in the closet.

One kid got mad ass too. Now he just gets a different kind.

What in the hell does that mean?

Its a thought process. Blank slate ideals?

You lost me.

[ 12-12-2004: Message edited by: Cacophonous ]

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They had girlfriends. They had sex with their girlfriends. They never acted gay. Then they just turned gay.

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Originally posted by Cacophonous:
Do you really think a person simply decides to become a homosexual? That's ridiculous...

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A direct correlation between genetic makeup and homosexuality has not been found. Until that time comes, I'm comfortable to at least consider the idea that there may be certain genetically-based traits that make one more predisposed to becoming homosexual. After all, this is true for alcoholics. Do you really think a person simply decides to become an alcoholic? Of course not. They may be genetically predisposed to alcoholism, but it takes certain environmental pressures to get an alcoholic to abuse alcohol. Likewise, it would follow that the same is true for gay people. And just as alcoholics can kick their habit, so can a homosexual become a heterosexual. After all, if homosexuality was purely genetic, how do so many gay people become exclusively heterosexual through therapy?

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You are born gay it's not a choice.

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Assuming there is some genetic predisposition to becoming gay, this would be like saying an alcoholic is born craving a drink, and that there is no choice involved. This isn't true. We all know there is choice involved when an alcoholic drinks, just as there is choice when he decides to quit. Of course, this is a generous position to take because there isn't any evidence that even a predisposition towards homosexuality exists in a gay person's genome. So the default position to take based on lack of such evidence would be that homosexuality is completely about choice. Again, though. I personally think it's reasonable to believe there could be a genetic predisposition... just not a on/off gay gene. Now that would be "ridiculous".

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Every single gay person I know has stated that they knew they were gay even as a young child.

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Most gay people I have talked to about it would go one step further and state that they were born that way. They have absolutely no scientific evidence nor could they even have any personal proof to support that claim. If there was not scientific grounds to support that I was born hetero, I could only take it on faith that I was born that way. Nobody has that kind of recall, nor is a person born with sexual awareness or desire for that matter. Besides, the fact that it is a fallacious statement, you have to take it with even more grains of salt because homosexuality is so stigmatized in our society that gay people want and need to believe regardless of proof that they were born that way. That is because if they were born that way, those who believe homosexuality is bad or immoral would have to be in the wrong because you can't fault someone for the way they were born.

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Louisiana Hot Sauce is ok in an emergency but its way too mild for my taste when it comes to hot sauces.

Mute have you tried Clancy's Fancy Hot Sauce?

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I like Louisiana for the taste, but I do generally prefer something hotter. I will try to find Clancy's in the store the next time I go. Right now I have about 5 different kinds because I was experimenting, and it turns out I enjoy the Louisian more. BTW, I saw a special on hot sauce. There's this stuff that looks like tar. It's called The Source, and it is the hottest stuff you can get.

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If I assault someone for money, I get punishment "A".

But if I assault someone because they are gay, I get a harsher punishment.

"It is a straight poodle"

"I really like the natural-sex onion rings with my poutine"

Cac is right again.

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Originally posted by Cacophonous:
Your statement contradicts itself.

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That said:

Kyle, you said " it goes against human nature saying that humans are born with no inherant knowledge, everything is learned. therefore, you would not be born gay, you would learn/be made gay"

If it is againsts human nature to be born with no inherant knowledge, then how is EVERYTHING learned and why can it not be that you are born with it... THAT is your "contradiction". I think I know what you mean...and some punctuation could fix yer blip. I too think it is a psychological thing.

If you are born with it, how long until we allow pedophiles a shitload of rights. I mean, they are sick fucks who get their jollies by watching naked little kids....but maybe they were born with it. Is it right to discriminate against pedophiles?

Oh, anyone ever try poutine? MMM....

French fries are BEST with gravy no matter which way you slice em

And the contradiction is there in your wording/punctuation. You say: "it goes against human nature saying that humans are born with no inherant knowledge" meaning NOT everything is learned because that would not be natural...then you say in the very same sentence: "everything is learned."

" human nature says that humans are born with an inherant knowledge, everything is learned. therefore, you would not be born gay, you would learn/be made gay" Means exactly the same as what you wrote...and it sounds terrible!

How much more straight forward can I be But remember, I do agree with you...it is not a "natural" predetermination. It is a psychological issue IMO.

However I understand what you are trying to say not that I agree with it.

Mute - You have some good points and it looks like we agree on most of them.

I'll check out that super hot sauce. Right now I have a bottle of Dave's Insanity sauce which is so hot I can only handle 9-10 drops in a bowl of my already hot chili. It's almost too hot. I think it's 95% habanaro peppers ground up.

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Romans 1:26-27

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error...

The bible says to love everyone, so I love gay people because they are God's creations just as I am, but their unnatural affections will prevent them from being with God in eternity if they don't repent from their abominable ways.

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Now in the Bible it says
Thou shalt not watch two lesbians in bed,
Have homosexual sex
Unless of course you were given the consent to join in
Then of course, it's intercourse
And it's bi-sexual sex
Which isn't as bad, as long as you show some remorse for your actions
Either before, during or after peforming the act of that which
Is normally referred to have such, more commonly known phrases
That are more used by today's kids
In a more derogatory way but
Who's to say, what's fair to say, and what not to say?

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HOT lesbians fascinate me...
Gay men repulse me...

"I love God - he is so incredibly EEvil!"
-stewie

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The thought of gay sex repulses me too, just like the thought of boobies or straight sex repulses gay people.

in response to the pedophile thing - to have sex with a kid is hurting someone and is obviously not consentual. two gay guys in the bedroom doesn't hurt anyone.

[ 12-14-2004: Message edited by: J0SH ]

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Mute, in response to your original post, this is like when a company HAS to employ a woman or a black person when facing equal applicants. It's not right, but think of it as taking more than the recommended amount of vitamins if you're recovering from a deficiency born illness. It's ok if necessary to revert things to normal. but after that it should go.

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Originally posted by FS:
Wow, I can't believe I'm agreeing with FS on this one

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the National Assembly gave a second reading to a bill that would create a "high authority" to fight discrimination of all kinds

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Originally posted by FS:
Wow, I can't believe I'm agreeing with FS on this one

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Originally posted by J0SH:
Reality - step back into reality please. Being gay is NOT a choice. One of my best friends in the world is gay. He tried to turn himself straight for years and years and what it comes down to is that it is not his choice. It is who he is and I do not think of him as any less of a person or a sinner for it.

"I love God - he is so incredibly EEvil!"
-stewie

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Many people have tried to quit smoking for years and years but they can't. They want to....but they can't. Maybe homosexuality is an addiction? Just a new spin on things....trying to stir debate.

As for the pedophilia hurting someone...what about that teacher? She lost her job and got jail time. THAT was consensual sex! My whole argument with that pedophilia thing was not to do with gays so much, but the whole thought of being punished for having a belief or opinion against a socialiogical abnormality is absolutely assinine.

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Originally posted by J0SH:
Eminem doesn't hate gay people. He has said that publicly.

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Originally posted by J0SH:
Being gay is NOT a choice. One of my best friends in the world is gay. He tried to turn himself straight for years and years and what it comes down to is that it is not his choice.

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J0SH ~ According to your reasoning, anyone who tries and fails to change their behavior must have been born with that behavior. That's not good reasoning. Just because a smoker may not be able to quit, doesn't mean he came out of the womb craving a stoge. Also, what about those who were gay, but became exclusively straight through therapy? That's choice. Hard facts to support homosexuality being genetic just don't exist.

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Originally posted by FS:
Mute, in response to your original post, this is like when a company HAS to employ a woman or a black person when facing equal applicants. It's not right, but think of it as taking more than the recommended amount of vitamins if you're recovering from a deficiency born illness. It's ok if necessary to revert things to normal. but after that it should go.

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Fess ~ Our laws protect us all from harassment regardless of race, religion, or sexual preference. They don't, however, protect any of us from being offended by someone else's opinions. That is what this law will do for one group of people. Not only is this law to a degree discriminatory against those who might express their anti-homosexuality opinions, but it will likely open up a can of worms that will lead legislators to outlaw certain phrases and words altogether.

It may even end up outlawing passages in the bible from being spoken or perhaps even printed. Though I have not really expressed my opinion on homosexuality in this thread, what I have posted thus far might even be considered anti-gay hatespeech under new laws. I know it's just France, but the whole world is moving in that general direction. There is a bigger picture here.

[ 12-14-2004: Message edited by: Mute ]

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Originally posted by FS:
Wow, I can't believe I'm agreeing with FS on this one

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I also like how the bible says slavery, racism, prejudice and incest is ok.

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Got that quote from edit*flux* in another thread. Reality~ the bible says all these things are OK. do you agree with this or do you just selectivly choose which parts of it you follow?

[ 12-14-2004: Message edited by: J0SH ]

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Originally posted by J0SH:
Got that quote from mute in another thread. Reality~ the bible says all these things are OK. do you agree with this or do you just selectivly choose which parts of it you follow?

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You got that quote from Flux in another thread, not me. So did you do your research and confirm Flux was correct, or did you just repeat something someone else said? - Anyway, you're doing just what Flux is doing in the other thread. If you don't believe in the bible, fine. But instead of attacking one little quote of scripure that you don't believe in, why not attack the non-biblical points that have been made in this thread? lol

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Originally posted by FS:
Do you believe it should be illegal to deny the holocaust?

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Jim Keegstra - Holocaust-denying high school teacher in Alberta - charged with "willfully promoting hate against an identifiable group...the Jewish people for being a social studies teacher who said "that a Jewish conspiracy had manipulated history for hundreds of years" Hardly criminal.

Malcolm Ross - Yet another Holocaust denying high school teacher - from New Brunswick who never once preached his views in class, but had some book published. He was charged and the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada stated "a teacher does not have the right to express sincerely held, constitutionally protected (although controversial) religious beliefs on his own time." Scary.

While I do not agree with these mens views, be damned if anyone has the right to say they cannot have them without punishment so long as they don't cause harm or harassment.

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Originally posted by Reality:
Romans 1:26-27

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error...

The bible says to love everyone, so I love gay people because they are God's creations just as I am, but their unnatural affections will prevent them from being with God in eternity if they don't repent from their abominable ways.

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To be more precise, that's what Paul said. I think it's a grave mistake to take him as the authority on everything. He also said don't get married because Jesus is coming back real soon, but I guess his definition of soon is a bit different than mine. Personally I think the guy is a self-righteous douchebag, but that's just me, so I'm a bit biased..

In any event, there's still a lot to be debated about him.

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In his books The Mythmaker and Paul and Hellenism, Talmudic scholar Hyam Maccoby exposed a theory that Paul was actually a Gentile raised in an environment influenced by the popular Hellenistic mystery religions centered on dying and resurrected savior deities, who later converted to Judaism, hoping to become a Pharisee scholar. He found work in Jerusalem as a police officer of the Sadducee High Priest, who was at that time a de facto Roman quisling in Jerusalem. Paul's work persecuting the enemies of the High Priest led to an internal conflict in his mind, which manifested itself while he was travelling to Damascus on a covert mission. Maccoby believes that Paul's revelation was thus actually a resolution of his divided self; Paul subsequently fused the mystery religions, Judaism and the Passion of Jesus into an entirely new belief, centered on the death of Jesus as a mystical atoning sacrifice. Maccoby considers Paul's claims to a Jewish background and Pharisaic education to be false, claiming that a number of passages in Paul's writings betray his ignorance of the Jewish Law.

Maccoby also contends that Paul invented many of the key concepts of the Christian religion, and that Gospels and other later Christian documents were written to reflect Paul's views rather than the authentic life and teaching of Jesus. Maccoby questions Paul's integrity as well:

Scholars feel that, however objective their enquiry is supposed to be, they must always preserve an attitude of deep reverence towards Paul, and never say anything to suggest that he may have bent the truth at times, though the evidence is strong enough in various parts of his life-story that he was not above deception when he felt it warranted by circumstances. (The Mythmaker)

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Originally posted by Scooby:
To be more precise, that's what Paul said. I think it's a grave mistake to take him as the authority on everything.

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Allow me to reply to this...

The Jews do not believe in Jesus the Savior. Despite the fact that Jesus fulfilled the some 300 1st-coming prophecies of the Old Testament, Jewish scholars still seek to discredit Him as the savior and Paul as a true follower of Christ's teachings. By default, they cannot believe that Jesus was divine, and cannot believe that Paul was divinely inspired by Jesus and His teachings. That is some pretty strong bias there...

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Paul's work persecuting the enemies of the High Priest led to an internal conflict in his mind, which manifested itself while he was travelling to Damascus on a covert mission. Maccoby believes that Paul's revelation was thus actually a resolution of his divided self

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He thinks he knows what was going on in Paul's head. He believes that Paul's blah blah blah. I don't care what he believes. If you want someone to doubt biblical christianity, than I say you had better come up with some solid facts. His theories fit in nicely with his bias, but judging by what you've posted, those theories seem to be nothing more than loose conjecture. Yeah, I'm gonna doubt the bible based on that.

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He also said don't get married because Jesus is coming back real soon, but I guess his definition of soon is a bit different than mine. Personally I think the guy is a self-righteous douchebag, but that's just me, so I'm a bit biased..

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You do not know what you are talking about. That's an old argument that you could find the answer to if you did any research. You shouldn't be debating scripture unless you quote the scripture you are referring to, and understand it. You have done neither of those. Your opinion of Paul seems weak without any real data or analysis to back it up.

If you want to change the direction of the thread with this stuff, than at least come prepared with some credible facts, comprehension of those facts...some bible knowledge couldn't hurt either.

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If you want someone to doubt biblical christianity, than I say you had better come up with some solid facts.

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"solid facts" and biblical christianity?

I always enjoy reading your bits. They make me laugh.

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The Jews do not believe in Jesus the Savior. Despite the fact that Jesus fulfilled the some 300 1st-coming prophecies of the Old Testament, Jewish scholars still seek to discredit Him as the savior and Paul as a true follower of Christ's teachings.

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OMG, the jews STILL don't see it the way you do? what on earth is wrong with them?

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OMG, the jews STILL don't see it the way you do? what on earth is wrong with them?

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J0SH ~ Where is this coming from? I didn not express any negative opinion towards Jews for not believing in Jesus Christ. Are you Jewish or something? Jew.

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Originally posted by Acid:
Mute has made 50 "I'm right and you know I'm right because here is the proof" replies.

I always enjoy reading your bits. They make me laugh.

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You have made 50 "I'm right because some guy told me about it. Or I am sure I watched it on TV"

You have just as many baseless findings...and I agree with Mute as far as the Bible is concerened. You take some guys who read seriously into something to make it serve their purpose. Then you will have those same people selectively choose portions of it which were not to be taken literally and they do...I mean, THAT was what Mute was getting at.